So they fudge the data. end of discussion. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. Not concerned with concealed carry. 45 acp damage human body Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. WebAs shown in Fig. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. Thats funny. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. The 5 Most Controversial Handgun Rounds About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. What will each round acco. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. I definitely know how to settle this little petty argument. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. All animals died pretty much on location. A .223 is just 55 grains. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. Not aim shoot. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. If an operator like a .45 go for it. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. Shot placement is the deciding factor. For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. But whats the long term average? 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. Creatine The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). and manufacturers. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. career to carry a Glock 9mm. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. I served in the USMC and in combat. For those not in the military, go for what you want. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. 45 stopping power! But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. Project: Aftermath Wiki. Kimber 1911 Rapide Dawn .45 ACP Pistol $ 1649 99 1649 dollars 99 cents. Open carry is fine where Im at. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. There are four major handgun founding factors. I spend a great deal of time on the range. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. 45 The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. D.R. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. If you have to revisit the basics of projectile ballistics, here is a decent place to start. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. How many decades are we going to have this debate? 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. He was a deputy sheriff. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. .45 ACP vs 9mm: Which Is Better? - Gun Digest Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. I hear arguments attempting to compare a 9mm Gold dot bullet (a hollow point expanding bullet) to a .45 Hydrashock bullet (a hollow cavity expanding bullet with a hardened sabot embedded in the cavity. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). Let me now take you back to 1987. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! Look at the Walter Scott shooting. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. Oh, and Sgt. Your shots have to count. That use the same ammo is the way for me. Thanks for your comment! Now, I read the officers story. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. Give me a 45 any day! The .45 knocked him on his ***. I like them all! arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. We report stories that would go untold. Black Talon The FBI just did the same thing. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. My $.02. But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. For another 2+ years. Im sure many hunters can attest to the expansion of rifle bullets recovered from their game. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. Thats why were here right? WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the I was told by a person in the government that the choice of 9mm verses any other round was decided by the cost and mass availability of the ammo periodFor Military, FBI, CIA, Police, Sheriffs and all governmen t branches Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. Died instantly. All rights reserved. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. ago Haha. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. When Does a .380 Beat I like my Colt GOV. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . Thats the secret. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. Thank you. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as knock-down power. The only thing that can knock a target down is physiological incapacitation or psychological stress. Train, train train and when your done. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. 45 Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. We had a good chuckle out of that one. Muscle memory is great thing. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! There were 5 gunshots to his chest. FN DUH! Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. I have several. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. I am old school. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. Its a freaking tarantula. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. Why arent both so much better than .223? If one of these conditions occurs, the human body should induce a counterbalance in the form of an opposite condition. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. Thats right George. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice.